Lois

Right after high school, I attended a UPC bible school. One lesson I remember was about the UPC oneness doctrine. S G Norris taught us to believe it by 'revelation'; however, if we didn't yet have the revelation, then we should just take it by faith until the revelation came because "obedience is better than sacrifice".

Well, most of us were young, altruistic, very impressionable and looking for something to believe in. Many of our agemates were buying into Hari Krishna, the Moonies, becoming a hippie, anything to give them the feeling of being important, on the cutting edge, far out . . . . . Believing the UPC 'revelation' was also a bit far out and cutting edge (after all this doctrine was only a couple of decades into existance at this time, Pentecost was not even old enough to be an antique yet) and it was also pretty safe --at least not likely to be physically harmful. So we gave ourselves passionately to this revelation or heresy depending on your viewpoint.

Years later, I graduated secular college. One lesson I remember from there was about logic, how you can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you just can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time. The problem with logic was that no matter how illogical something might be on the surface, our human brains seemed to be wired so that we could twist them into believing even the most ridiculous dogma --for those of you who took humanities, think Jar Boy

So, how does one decide what to believe?? My UPC pastor at the time said he could 'argue all sides of almost any issue'. Today his UPC church has 'levels of salvation.'

My then teenage son lamented "why doesn't God just give us a specific list of rules?" My answer at the time was that God wanted us to have the pleasure of working it out using his instruction book, the Bible. I still think that is not too bad of an answer

So if the plan of salvation is so simple that "a wayfaring man, though a fool need not err therein" why do we have a gazillion books and thousands of religions to explain it??????? If God knows the ending from the beginning, why did he start with the LAW?? Why didn't he just start with Christ and be done with it and not put humanity through all this angst???? Why did He need the OT??

My thoughts:

The plan of salvation is truly very simple --Christ died as an atonement for man and anyone who believes has hope of salvation. So why is that so hard? That is so hard b/c human beings want to somehow be in charge, in the know, important, make up the rules, be in charge of the rules, etc. We can take any number of very simple tasks and write a thousand page manual.

So why did God make us this way? He could have made us more simple, more obedient, less questioning, less thoughtful. Well, that is an easy one -- we are made in the image...

Nancy

Lois

We have been out of the UPC for several weeks (almost months) now. I have read an abundance of books, posts, other materials as well as the Bible. My son bought me a new Thomas chain Bible for my birthday in November. I am trying to figure out the best way to use it
The more I read, the more error I see in the UPC organization/doctrine/ministry . . . . .
I am realizing finding the answers I need will not be an easy task.

This I know:

God loves me of this I am absolutely certain

If I am saved as in salvation, it will only be by faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement on the cross, not by anything I have done or could possibly do

Most of the UPC salvational works and especially 'standards' cannot be supported by scripture

There is a great deal of intentional and unintentional spiritual abuse and scamming in the UPC and other groups proclaiming to have the 'truth'

Giving to a church or pastor (especially a pastor) is most often not the same thing as giving to God

Well, the past few weeks and months have not been wasted. I am on a journey. My understanding and relationship with God is growing stronger as I realize it should be built on love and trust rather than fear. I am immensely thankful for God, his Word, the wonderful people He has put in my life and the love I feel more strongly each day.

Nancy

So you leave an unhealthy or abusive church but are thinking of remaining within the same religious organization because you don't question the salvation doctrine or something along this line. You haven't done anything wrong, but are no longer in agreement on an issue.

Sometimes these pastors take it upon themselves to call around to other area pastors within the organization, to 'warn' them about you. I know firsthand as it was done to me. I went to see a neighboring pastor, to decide if I might attend there, and he informed me that my former pastor had called to warn him about me. (He would have been fine with my joining the church, though I decided later that I could no longer attend these churches.)

It is funny how some pastors, who feel that salvation isn't found much outside their organization's doors, will feel it is right to try and block a person from attending another church with their same "truth." I guess they want you to be lost. Isn't that really what they are saying when they do things like this? Or maybe they are trying to force you to come back to them on your knees, begging to be allowed back. If so, that is pathetic, controlling, manipulative and sick. In the years since I left, I have heard from a number of people from all over, that their former pastor warned other pastors about them.

If the pastor who is being warned is anything like the one doing the warning, then you will be told you are not welcome there. They probably won't even give you a chance to explain why you left. If they are not, you may have an opportunity to attend. There is a chance you could be welcomed openly, but there may be more of a chance that you will be closely watched and not trusted, nor allowed to become involved. You may have to go through months of this before being fully accepted-- that is, if you don't somehow 'mess up' in the meantime. Another thing that goes along with this, is pastors sometimes telling current members to have no contact with the person who left.

Should you find yourself in this place and not openly welcomed, you may want to consider the possibility that your reasons for leaving may not just be a local church issue (this is initially what I thought) and that there may be more wrong with the actual group than you thought. People are not owned by the church they attend, nor the pastor of it. And if someone is trying to keep you outside the walls of 'truth,' then perhaps that 'truth' isn't really what it is claimed to be....

Again, if your church feels they have some special 'truth' that the majority of people do not have, wouldn't it be more fitting to do everything they can to reach out to you, even if they believe you are in sin or rebellious or whatever? Isn't it better that you be saved, then cast aside and doomed for all eternity? From the actions of some, you wouldn't think so!

...

Lois